RedSub variations....

[bullibeer]

On a forum,.. they started to post all Redsub variations,.... and there are much more then i knew.
On the mtr's first there are different with different 'f' and SUBMARINER printed on the dial or printed on white beneath.....
Philipp has them in a great overview....

So i will start,... and hopefully you will add others,.. Mike, Ed you are the 'masters' so please help....

Thanks, Bernhard

A. early editions (MK1) in my version,.. but there are more (Phillip please help) > 1967-1970

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/Rolex1680RedJason3B.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/collectie/Rolex1680Redbruin10.jpg


B Open 6 version (wide open 6) ,... 1970 - end of 1972

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/Rolex1680RedHans3.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/Rolex1680RedHans3-1.jpg


C. Open 6, but less open > 'Beyeler Dial',... about 1971- end of 1972

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/Rolex1680REDP4.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/RedBeyelerDetail.jpg


D. Closed 6, last version > about 1973 till 1974

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/BBRolex1680redB.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/BBRolex1680closed.jpg




And of course the dates,... are not 100% correct, also Rolex used dials when they where still available..,..... comment very welcome,...

[ehemaliges mitglied]

Bernhard,

the second picture from the top kind of looks like as if the red "submariner" was printed over a white submariner? Is this just the light?

I cant believe how many variations there are...

Great job! Boris

[retsyo]

Sorry that I can't show even more variations, but I wasn't aware that there were so many variations at all... 8o

Great comparative pictures! :gut:

[bullibeer]

Yes,.. that is normal,... on the mtr's first dials there are variations,.. where the red is printed on top of white! I guess because they needed the white to get the red bright enough,....

[Hannibal]

Great comparative pictures. I cannot add another one, cause the word submariner on my watch is white ;) .
But I have a question: What does "Swiss - T < 25" mean? Mine says "Swiss made".
Kind regards
Volker

[delgado]

Bernhard,

Nice review. I might to use this..

There is at least another meters first dial with the long "f" in the depth markings.. the coronet is like the first version of 600/200.

photos courtesy of diverdick,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/drdelgado/Red-Submariner-Post-Service.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/drdelgado/red-subcloseupdd.jpg

compared to your scan
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/Rolex1680RedJason3B.jpg

[delgado]

Boris,

Its common to see red over white paint in most reds.

Volker

"SWISS MADE" only might indicate a service replacement dial. Can you post a scan?

Delgado

[bullibeer]

Original von delgado
Bernhard,

Nice review. I might to use this..

There is at least another meters first dial with the long "f" in the depth markings.. the coronet is like the first version of 600/200.

photos courtesy of diverdick,

compared to your scan


Yes Ed,... that's the right one,.. i was missing and meaning in my topic.
Philipp has a couple...
Then there are the images of the very early ones without minute-markers,.. but i never understood if they are 100% genuine.... ???

[Hannibal]

@delgado:
Perhaps you misunderstood my post. I do not own a RedSubmariner. I have an ordinary Submariner and the dial says: "Swiss made"

But in the picture from the post above, one can see the following:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1795/swissbz0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

My question was: What does this mean?

Kind regards
Volker

[delgado]

Volker,

Your red sub dial looks ok, the "SWISS MADE" one, on what model and what year? is a current model with luminova?

T<25 mean that it contains less than 25 milllicuries of tritium.

Delgado

[Hannibal]

Hello Delgado,
thank you for your information.
Once again, i do not own any RedSubmariner, the fotodetail is taken from the post of bullibeer.
My watch is shown in the picture below:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/2529/wssubmarinerswmediumxx1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Kind regards
Volker

[philipp]

Imho there are 3 versions of the 200 meter first Red's...Here some of my knowledge on the 200 first series where i see the serials now as....

- Closed 6 with longest F over FT and red over white Submariner..from serial 1.7? - 2.2xx.xxx
- Open 6 with long F touching the FT and red over white Submariner.. from 2.1 - 2.4xx.xxx
- Open 6 with smallest F and red Submariner directly on the dial.. 2.2 - 2.4xx.xxx

Here the bigger scan: http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/redsub200m-660.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/redsub200m-660.jpg

Here a close up from a 'red over white' print..

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/redusb-2rlx.jpg[/IMG]

and here a scan of a red directly on the dial..

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/redondial-1rlx.jpg



Off course there are also different ' dial confersion - serial numbers ' around. Last couple of years we know that serveral dials have been swapped making a box and paper example more rare and valuable by putting in a tropical dial for instance...Provenace is here the key word giving us some proof. And as always, everything is possible within Rolex. Rumour say that the first was a 1,7 million but untill now i have not seen an pre 2,1 million redsub yet....

Some thinking from my side especially when i compare the Redsubs with the Drsd. Early drsd mk1 & some mk2 had the red over white paint and later all mk3-4 etc seadwellers the red is directly on the dial. So logical these 2 versions in the 200 meter first with 'red over white' should be the early ones and the 200 meter first where the red goes directly would be more the transitional type going from 200/660 to 660/200 dials where red was always directly on the dial....Imho Rolex found a more clean way to print the red visible directly on the dial because the 'experimental' fase of red over white wasn't as nice and looking sometimes quite strange and messy..

Earlier this week and after being in a long battle for some time with a very nice collector, i finally got this amazing 2,29x xxx redsub that i can happily share with you... In my eye the most beautifull 1680 meters first with the red submariner printing directly on the dial..& pleasant detail for me, the perfect aging to a tropical brown dial ; - )

Rgrds.Philipp


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680redbrasil-1rlx.jpg


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680redbrasilrlx.jpg


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680redbrasil-2rlx.jpg



Here the big scans:

- http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680redbrasil-1.jpg
- http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680redbrasil-2.jpg
-http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680redbrasil.jpg[IMG]

[bullibeer]

Perfect Philipp,... that's what i was hoping for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Grazie!

[miboroco]

Sehr interessant :gut:

[philipp]

see you soon, rgrds.P

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/rolex1680orangeredsubbprlx.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/rolex1680orangetropicalbrlx.jpg

[philipp]

Then there are the images of the very early ones without minute-markers,.. but i never understood if they are 100% genuine.... ???

Like the meters first one that Modani had and shows in his Submariner Book you probably mean..this was by serial not a very early one but had 3,8 million..Imho i see these as unfinised or rejected dials and probably not officially sold by Rolex. There is no logical reason why a 3,8 million case and a 2,1 to 2,4 million meters first & dial could match expect that it got in there via the backdoor of the printer...

http://images.antiquorum.com/108/full/26.jpg

http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.html?action=load&lotid=26&auctionid=108

Anyway A. also sells a 5,2 million case with a 2.1 - 2.4xx.xxx dial for big money. I always wonder what they say to their clients "afterwards".. stating to their buyers that these were a special delivery or quoting it as an mistake of Rolex..Hmmm

http://images.antiquorum.com/171/full/81.jpg

http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.html?action=load&lotid=81&auctionid=171



Regards,

Philipp

Here my Arabian 2,38 million 200/660 with the red over white on the dial...; - )

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/rolex1680orangeredsubbprlx.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/rolex1680orangetropicalbrlx.jpg

and the better scans..


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/rolex1680orangeredsubbp.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/rolex1680orangetropicalbp.jpg

[delgado]

Philipp,

The scan that you have as "directly on the dial" is not correct. That one the white paint has not shown from under the red..but trust me its there... wanna remove it for a bet :) I dont suggest it...:)

The ones directly on the dial look much thinner..

BTW nice post..

Delgado

[bullibeer]

Yes Philipp,... there is your challenge,....... go for it... :D :D

[philipp]

Hi Ed,

I have had the same remark from *philip* i will ago " Are you sure there is no white paint behind the 2 Sub words on left ?...

almost certain.. but think that you will find a dial somewhere so i don't have to scratch it ; - )..here some bigger scans where you see that there is a difference in printing technique. Imho the red that goes in my eyes directly to the dial is much sharper und richer rounded laying on top of the dial...

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/redondial.jpg

&

besides the redprint technique, the font is also different, one thin and the other thicker and the F doesn't touches the FT and one F is on top longer than the other..

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/redoverwhite.jpg

The same logic i posted on VRF in a discussion with M.Pisani..early 1680 red dials : dedicated to Philipp, December 31 2007 at 8:28 AM....Where you already partying at that time ; - )

Let us know what you think.

Enjoy the Sunday, Rgrds.Philipp

[delgado]

I did not participate on the discussion on VRF with Mr Pisani but he is a very knowledgeable collector and has been collecting watches for a long time.

Just to illustrate ..

This is bernhard example of paint directly on the dial.. you can see its not as "heavy" on the dial since it is directly on the dial.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/RedBeyelerDetail.jpg

Again, this is not a red sub but also illustrate red paint directly on the dial.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/drdelgado/1665drsd/rsd31.jpg

[bullibeer]

Hi Ed,.....

also the MK3 DRSD was printed directly on the dial i guess....

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/collectie/RolexDRSD2.jpg

[philipp]

I understand what you say..and correct it's not a sub & as i said above..

Some thinking from my side especially when i compare the Redsubs with the Drsd. Early drsd mk1 & some mk2 had the red over white paint and later all mk3-4 etc seadwellers the red is directly on the dial. So logical these 2 versions in the 200 meter first with 'red over white' should be the early ones and the 200 meter first where the red goes directly would be more the transitional type going from 200/660 to 660/200 dials where red was always directly on the dial....Imho Rolex found a more clean way to print the red visible directly on the dial because the 'experimental' fase of red over white wasn't as nice and looking sometimes quite strange and messy..


Here for instance 'red directly' 200 meter first & a MK2 'red over white'..

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/2xtswissrlx.jpg


and here the mk 3 & 4 directly on the dial..

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/2xtwiss25rlx.jpg

Rgrds.P

[delgado]

I am not sure that I follow your conclusions.

IMO the only directly on the dial is the drsd in the bottom right.. (out of the four scans posted)

You are just lucky enough to have a nice example without the red migrating and revealing the white under it. love it!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/drdelgado/1680meters/D2x5330.jpg

[philipp]

"This is bernhard example of paint directly on the dial.. you can see its not as "heavy" on the dial since it is directly on the dial"

It a MK4 you show and later in production and so a uncomparable example also having different font & printing technique ..

&

You are just lucky enough to have a nice example without the red migrating and revealing the white under it. love it

LOL Ed & thanks! but i have not 1 but at least 4 examples in my collection with the red directly on the dial and i compared all relevant pictures i have in my database before i said something..it's not luck, it's logic.

Further i don't understand you saying that the DRSD MK4 is the only one were the red is directly on dial as you for instance say about the DRSD MK2's on your site: " ...The distinguishing characteristic of this dial is the print. The print is usually directly applied onto the dial and is a bright red and crisp. & stating on the DRSD MK3.."The dial red print is very similar to the one above .."

& don't you see the difference between the 2 F's from FT in your picture just posted and mine? Imho expect this non touching F the font on yours is thinner than were they printed the red directly..

So take you time Ed, read it again and look closely on the differences. Let's see if this helps understanding my theory..

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/redondialbs.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/2xred.jpg

..... & ones we are ready with this, please write this time my name correctly on your site ; - )))

Rgrds.P

[bullibeer]

Original von delgado
I am not sure that I follow your conclusions.

IMO the only directly on the dial is the drsd in the bottom right.. (out of the four scans posted)

You are just lucky enough to have a nice example without the red migrating and revealing the white under it. love it!




Hi Ed,.... the picture below to the left is the MK3 DRSD,.... isn't that printed directly on the dial,... as you look at mine it shure looks like it,... otherwise there are very, very good in printing to colors with this thin font!!!!!! ???????????

[philipp]

Komplete 200M-1680 red with 2,42x.xxx serial and the red over white thin print of Submariner. Dial is getting brown from the inside with beautifull aged tritium on hands and indexes..Seller told me that the watch has been till 1988 with first owner wearing it, afterwards it was all the time in the safe....untill now ; - ) & Here we see clearly the red over white print matching in the second range of 200 meter first dials "open 6 & red over white from 2.1 - 2.4xx.xxx."

Rgrds.Philipp


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680RoW242-1.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680RoW242.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680RoW242-2.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680RoW242-3.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/1680RoW242-4.jpg

[bullibeer]

Yes Philipp,.. another killer!! :verneig: :verneig:

All you,... double punched,.... perfect,...and from first owner,... great history.

Enjoy my friend!

[delgado]

Komplete! Kool full papers watch! Karamba!

Philipp I think you just invented a word... I like it. :)

Back to the red subs.. I agree the dials are different but the print still white paint over red paint..

[arndt]

Wow, Philipp, what a set!

Btw:
my 1680, #24219xx has the ft first, here some scans:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/arndt/redsub.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/arndt/IMG_0026.jpg

[ehemaliges mitglied]

This thread has been a real learning lesson. I am close to getting a red sub again. Lost mine in a robbery, but can't forget this watch.

Aside from all the dial variations, there are also movement variations I believe. First, there are movements with hacking and non-hacking seconds. Not sure if there are also different movement references? Anyone can shed some light on this?

I am impressed with the collection of Phillip. And with all papers, punched serial. That's quite something.

Would any of you mind to send me a private message regarding what maximum price I should pay for an early red sub with open 6, serial starting with 25xxx, no papers, no box, nothing? Just curious what I have to expect.

I am enjoying this thread a lot.

[bullibeer]

Original von arndt
Wow, Philipp, what a set!

Btw:
my 1680, #24219xx has the ft first, here some scans:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/arndt/redsub.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/arndt/IMG_0026.jpg


Wow,... fantastic watch,..... enjoy this beauty!!!!


>>>
I had a mtr's first red-sub with hacking-movement,.. confirmed in a letter from Rolex,... that it was correct...

[eparisini]

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4956/redsubvariants200660ey5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1922/redsubvariants660200op3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[philipp]

This is a older & incorrect summery that i first saw on a italian forum..

As i & others have shown with the full packets & all original meter first redsubs the range and the order shown in the above summery is NOT correct. It's nice for a discussion but as we have seen by serveral examples on this forum and other forums, it's doesnt match and don't give us proof on the early 2.0 to 2.4 meter first...

But more exciting is the FT first of Arndt!! Nice and early one with red over white print clearly visible. When you compare your FT first with 2.421.9xx with my complete meter first with serial: 2.421.7xx the line when they changed from meter first to feet first is probably 2.421.8xxx

This is good news! Imho, we have achieved something by knowing the turning point!!....besides that Ed now also sees the difference in the 3 x early 200 meter first series off course ; - )

Rgrds.Philipp

[eparisini]

Philipp can you please post correct sequence of dials?

[philipp]

Sold in Maastricht, my hometown by a dealer that was only selling Rolex for a very short time. The buyer that lived across the border in Belgium made the right choice, he chosed a red sport model and kept all papers, etc that came with it...

I sold the watch 2 years ago to an enthousiastic Rolex collector in Australia, he paid probably a world record price for it then...now he gave me the oppertunity to buy it back where i am very thankfull for!

Rgrds.Philipp

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/5508/redsubducatie.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/5508/redsubmstr1rlx.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/5508/redsubmaastricht1rlx.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/5508/redsubmaastricht2rlx.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/5508/redsubmstr2rlx.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/5508/resubmaastricht3rlx.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/stahlauctioneers/5508/redsubmstr3rlx.jpg